Neurodiversity (and much, much more) with Wes Wade, LCMHC, LCAS, NCC

From critical race theory to neurodivergence on college campuses, this conversation covers a lot of ground. Tripp sits down with Wesley Wade to discuss the neurodivergent college experience, resources available, and Wes’s experience in higher education. Topics covered include: 

• Cultivating a health social media diet
• The role of history in determining our future
• Health insurance + for-profit healthcare (and therapy) 
• Individualism vs. collectivism 
• Identity-first vs. person-first language
• The neurodivergent student experience 

Wesley Jackson Wade is a licensed clinical mental health counselor, a licensed clinical addictions specialist, a certified clinical mental health counselor, and a national certified counselor. He is the owner and operator of Forward Counseling & Consulting, a small consulting and private counseling practice in NC. Wesley holds a bachelor’s degree from NC State University, two master’s degrees from North Carolina Central University–one in clinical mental health counseling and another in career counseling– and he is currently working on a Ph.D. in Educational Leadership, Policy, & Human Development with a concentration in Counseling and Counselor. Wesley has 9+ years of industry experience, 7+ years of higher education experience, and enjoys teaching, writing, navigating difficult conversations, and leading large-scale complex projects. Wesley is an advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion with a passion for matters of race, gender, neurodiversity, and disability.

Find us on the web:

• Advaita Integrated Medicine
• Green Hill Recovery

Transcript

I'm pumped to sit down today with Wesley Wade. Wes is a licensed clinical mental health counselor, licensed clinical addiction specialist, certified clinical mental health counselor, and a national certified counselor. He has one master's degree in clinical mental health counseling, and another in career counseling as if that isn't enough for three lifetimes, Wes is also pursuing his PhD in counseling and counselor education, Wes. I can't remember how we got connected a few years back, but you know, I've really always enjoyed our conversations, usually over some good Indian food. And every time I walk away, I'm just energized to have a positive impact on the world. So thank for joining me here, man. I

Speaker 2 (00:01:03):

Feel like that too. I appreciate that. There's nothing better than genuine conversations over good food. That is well spiced. Exactly. <Laugh>

Speaker 1 (00:01:12):

I think that's how I hope that's the tagline for this <laugh> I like it. Love it. Yeah. So I pulled some information from your bio to get us started. You have spent a lot of your professional life addressing multicultural concerns and increasing understanding through authentic connection. I think that's something you do really well, again, that authentic connection and collaboration. So you like to have uncomfortable conversations or help people navigate that. So I'm hoping we're gonna get into some yeah. Testy waters today. Let's do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We we've got different experiences and I'm excited to learn from you. And I think our listeners will get a lot out of this. So where do you wanna start?

Speaker 2 (00:01:53):

Oh man. Iron sharpens iron brother. So I definitely learn from you as well. I was, I was, I can't okay. This is, I know we'll end up about like some neuro divergent identity stuff and you know, the, the piece of being authentic is what I have always known about myself, but it's also something that I can't really help either. Like this is my natural bend is to point out things that are like in yeah. That don't jive, that aren't working and just to be myself. And so it's hard navigating that space for multitude of reasons throughout life. Right. And <laugh> when you were talking about, so I think it might have been on LinkedIn about like navigating uncomfortable conversations and stuff. I'm also a huge, like sci-fi and little bit of fantasy and comic book nerd. The first thing that came to my mind was the last movie in the Chris Nolan Batman series of BA <laugh>.

Speaker 2 (00:02:56):

So I was when he's like, you think darkness is your ally <laugh> I was born in it. I was like, you think uncomfortable conversations are your ally. I was born in them. Like it's, it's, it's, it's a natural part of just the black experience in the United States. It doesn't mean that everyone is comfortable with it, but you just, you just, it's a part part of your life, you know? And I grew up in overwhelmingly not even predominantly like overwhelmingly like white spaces for the most part, because, and I don't fault my parents for this at all. They were trying to make the best decisions at that point to go to like, quote unquote good schools. Right. So I, a lot of times would be, you know, one of the only, not just only like black kids is one of the only, like non-white kids in a class with a grade and you just have a lifetime of experiences that negatively impacts you, but also teaches you and forges you, you know I mean, many great writers and thinkers have talked about that.

Speaker 2 (00:03:56):

And it's just, it's, it's this level of complexity that you just exist within from day one, you know? Yeah. You're sitting in class in first grade, second grade, third grade that young and it's February. So it's, you know, and I'm going back to when I was a kid at that point in time. So it was like late eighties and you know, they're wheeling out the TV, the, the tube TV, like let's look at some Martin Luther king videos of when we solved racism, you know, and you're just, you know, it's, it's that reality of here's this horrible thing that is a cornerstone of the United States slavery, right. And just the explosion of race, right. As a sociopolitical identity. And you realize as a kid, you're like, well, this thing was horrible. If I had a time machine, like I would end this, but it would also mean that I wouldn't exist, but that would be okay because this was so horrible. And as a little kid, you come to these conclusions, so it's like I've been having these conversations <laugh> life <laugh>.

Speaker 1 (00:05:10):

Well, I I always, when I reflect on my journey with, I guess race and, and politics in general, I mean, I think I grew up, I grew up in the opposite of my, well, maybe the same environment, but as a, as a white privileged guy. Right. And it's like, everything's good now. Like, Hey, racism, you know, civil rights that, that happened, right. Like slavery that happened, but there what's the, I

Speaker 2 (00:05:36):

Got a black Fred, we

Speaker 1 (00:05:37):

Played kickball. What's the big deal. Right. And it wasn't until I, and I think how I crave these conversations because I know I learn a lot. And like I had the first, the first time I really got to experience this was in the army with a couple of black friends. And kinda how would they get you in the army band? Yeah. I wouldn't say they sat me down, but like over time we developed this relationship where I got to ask a lot of questions. Yeah. And and then I took it and, and then I learned you don't just get to ask questions. Right. Like that's a whole oh yeah. But

Speaker 2 (00:06:11):

I, I was, it's a

Speaker 1 (00:06:12):

Two-Way street brother and I was afforded a really good opportunity. And I think that that really shape me and like seeking out those uncomfortable situations. And I always reflect on the fact though that like, I didn't grow up in uncomfortability as the status quo. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I grew up getting to choose it. Right. And also with a confidence that I got to choose it and then I could leave. Yeah. And that's a, that's a different space. So

Speaker 2 (00:06:37):

Yeah. This was a good conversation fellows. I'm gonna go home and <laugh>, <laugh>, they're like, all right. All right. Trip. Yeah. Yeah. I always forget that you were in, cause you weren't just in the army, you were a ranger, weren't you? Yeah. You were, you were Walker, Texas ranger out here doing split kicks in your stretch jeans man.

Speaker 1 (00:06:56):

So something like that. Yeah. It was it was a different experience, but it definitely shaped me and it shaped I mean, I went into the funny thing, being that I went into the army, one of the most more conservative institutions in the country. Right, right, right. And came out this like rabid liberal. Who's like dedicated to social justice now. So

Speaker 2 (00:07:14):

Yeah. I'm waiting for the book, man. Well,

Speaker 1 (00:07:16):

I, if I was a better writer maybe, but we, we can talk

Speaker 2 (00:07:20):

<Laugh>

Speaker 1 (00:07:23):

No, I would much rather amplify other people who, who played a role in that change because yeah. I mean, it's been fascinating for me. So what, what issues are we gonna talk about? Do we wanna talk about, oh man. Yeah. You know, we got anything you opened up, we went in

Speaker 2 (00:07:36):

There's so many things, you know, I'll say so to is is it okay if I say this? Yeah. <laugh> today is December 15th, right. And I saw two things on Twitter that had, well, there's a lot of things on Twitter. I saw that had me fired up today, but one bell hooks died today. And bell hooks was just a prolific woman who did a lot of work and wrote, did a lot of writing about feminism and made feminism understandable for guys like me. I refer to myself as someone who is in recovery from toxic masculinity and some people have issues with that. And you know, so what, but, you know, I mean, it's a reality. Yeah. When we, when we're in spaces like the military or sports, you know, I played football play lacrosse. I did a lot of martial arts and you know, we'll, we'll call it locker room talk or whatever, as we know that there's a culture where dudes are just looking at women as like objects, not even thinking about it, you know, and it's to act like that you can be in those spaces and not be a part of that.

Speaker 2 (00:08:44):

And it doesn't impact you. It's just ignorance. It's just willful ignorance. Right. And I still, every day am like learning more and more, but I've made a lot of progress with this in my life. And feminism is for everybody, I think was one of her books that I had read a few years ago and, you know, multiple essays and things that she wrote. And she was only 69 years old, man. Wow. That's not old, no. 69 years young. That's like, that's not, oh, that is young and older. You get the more you realize what is young, you know? And it's, I I don't think people understand the weight and the stress that goes into doing that kind of work. You look at, you know, Martin Luther king Jr. Obviously he was assassinated, but when they did an autopsy of his body, like his arteries were called and all this stuff, like stress kills, kills you.

Speaker 2 (00:09:38):

Yeah. Right. one of my really good friends, he's like a big brother, man. And Dr. Enrique NEIT Enrique does Dr. NEIT Enrique does research about you know, how racism impacts mental health mm-hmm <affirmative> right. And I mean, it, it impacts are everyday existence, right? Yeah. And so when you were dedicating your life to going even deeper, like this layer of intersectionality as a black woman, and you were expanding on this and the relationship with feminism and all the different waves of feminism and, you know, black feminist thought and all this stuff like that, that's a lot, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of racial battle fatigue and all these other things. And I don't know, I've never met her. I never met professor hooks or anything, but I have no idea about her health outcome, but it would be my assumption that doing all of that heavy lifting has had an impact, you know?

Speaker 2 (00:10:35):

Yeah. I just, so that was, that was a something I'm not, I don't know where we go from that. But then in addition to that, there was oh man. No, I can't remember. I don't remember the other thing. I was gonna say, which that's alright. This goes into the the neuro divergent ADHD identity, cuz working memory is not my strength, but there was those horrible tornadoes, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and like Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri, Mississippi area, if I might be mixing the states up, but people, I think it was like 80 plus people have died as of yet. And the death hole is gonna continue to rise as they continue to do these search and rescues and stuff. But you had people at two companies, a candle factory. Hmm. And the Amazon warehouse that died because the reports are coming out, that they were told that were led to believe that if you leave that, you know, you're, you might get fired or things like this, but wow. We are not societally structured to value the wellness of individuals and families. Yeah. You know, and I, that stuff like that will depress me. Like I will sit and just dwell on that for hours to the point where I don't even want to, I gotta, I gotta search for other meanings to get up and get going. Yeah. You know,

Speaker 1 (00:12:04):

That's heavy. The I don't know, I'm gonna shed on that one. I think one of the benefits for me have been, and I consider myself a social entrepreneur and putting those things at the forefront of what we do, trying to make sure that we are, you know, addressing the needs of our patients or clients, but also of, of everyone on the team and looking at that maternity leave policy that paternity leave, how do, how do we structure and also structure the business model? Like the business model has to have flexibility. Like you cannot be managing everything down to the penny and maximizing returns or you just can't actually prioritize that stuff. Right. it's just not possible. So to me, that's like the great I get to, I get to live on the edge daily because I to, you know, run a business and try and do that. Right. And that is a, to me it's an interesting philosophical pursuit.

Speaker 2 (00:13:01):

Yeah. I you know, we talked a little bit about this and I mean, I'm making a, I don't have any problem saying this, but I'm making a switch to going into business for myself. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> like fully. And while I focus on finishing this PhD and you know, I think it, you know, I have visions and thoughts like, oh, what if I did this? What if I did that and had these employees and this, that, and I'm like, how would I, how would I provide for all these other details? You know? And I'm like, I have, I don't know. And these are things that are really important to me. And I'm just like, I, well, I won't do that until I have a solution for it. I don't, I just, it's hard because you know, whether, you know, obviously some people love it and some people are indifferent.

Speaker 2 (00:13:47):

Some people hate it, but we are in a capitalistic society, money, everything comes down to a dollar all the time. You know, everything can't come down to a dollar. It has to be some things that just don't come down to a dollar. You know, we can't keep looking at like, oh yeah, there's all these health outcomes. And you know, and hospitals could do more, but you know, they're losing money. Should that, why should that be a thing? Why, why should it matter that our healthcare system is looking at profit ability. It's not SU it doesn't function. It's not designed hypothetically. It shouldn't be designed to be a, a, a factor profitability. So it it's, but, but we are, this is where we are. Yeah. I just, I don't know. And they're not easy questions, man. You,

Speaker 1 (00:14:30):

Oh, I'm gonna, it's not, I wanna push you on this point. Yeah. Like I, I'm gonna, I did a few episodes around on for-profit healthcare and I mm-hmm <affirmative> I own up to this. Yeah. Like I'm in for-profit healthcare. It's what I do. Right. And the incentives aren't right. Period. Right, right. Like the incentives aren't right. But, but again, this is capitalism. Yeah. I'm not. But I actually don't think that's the right thing to focus on, but, and here's where I'm gonna, I'm gonna put this,

Speaker 2 (00:14:59):

What, what is not the right thing to focus on

Speaker 1 (00:15:01):

Simply whether you're for profit or not for profit, there's a better way to regulate that. And here's where I always say, right. Like your private

Speaker 2 (00:15:09):

Practice. Yeah. It's not a for-profit. I mean, it's not a nonprofit, it's

Speaker 1 (00:15:12):

A for-profit and nothing feels bad about that. I mean, well, okay. Maybe. Well, if you're, I mean, if, if I'm, if I'm gonna go see you, if I need a therapist, a counselor. Yeah. And I go see you, I don't feel like my therapist is taking advantage of me. I mean good. But <laugh> no, but, and I, I have massive qualms with our system, but it's more, yeah. This is actually like, this is the hill I'm gonna die on over the next 30 years is, is, is fighting for the right type of regulation. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> to make sure that we get the right incentive structures to promote health. And I think a lot of that goes back to because, and here's where I'll, I'll go with. This is when you look at crazy compensation packages for executives. I mean, and again, let's not even touch the whole, you know, tax code or anything else today, but what gets interesting to me is, I mean, a for profit versus not for it is just a tax shelter to some organizations. And instead we've gotta be looking at like, and this is where you gotta get down into the weeds of understanding how it operates. We gotta look at like, how many patients are you expected to see a day? How long are the visits, how long, you know? And, and we could regulate it based on that, because we have to enter all that data in to get paid. So I don't know, but that's a,

Speaker 2 (00:16:34):

Yeah. You know, so maybe you know, when I just start spewing off my brain, all numbers, remember everything I said, so it's what wasn't really about profit versus nonprofit. Right? Sure. More about, are we the, the role of profit within these decisions that we're making? Right. Which, you know, I guess yeah. If you're looking at that and this is say a hospital and we're like, well, let's just wipe money away. I guess it, theoretically it is a nonprofit at that point in time, so, yeah. Okay. I see what you're saying. Yeah. So like, okay. Thinking about the private practice element, it brings me a lot of, of grievance thinking about expanding, just even restarting and expanding my private practice, because I don't want to take insurance. Yeah. It's a pain for counselors. Like we have to do all these, all

Speaker 1 (00:17:28):

The nodes. I have

Speaker 2 (00:17:30):

All those, whatever licenses and certifications that you read off, like multiple degrees in this area, but it's, it's hard for us to get credentialed under insurance, you know, and the billing structure and payment times and all this stuff that you gotta do, and you gotta manage all these things. And like, you know, I gotta like assign diagnoses and all this stuff. Yeah. And it's, you can't really work with someone the way that you want, or you have to like be creative in how you're designing, you know, your billing when you're submitting to the insurance company. But the other piece is if I just take, you know, private, you know, out of pocket at pay, I'm not going to see all of the clients. Like my breakdown of clients is not gonna be focused on people who really need it. Right. You know, I'm not saying that the clients don't need it. Right. Like I appreciate and have had great clients, the people who are like in crisis, who don't have jobs and like, I need help. I can't help them right. By without taking insurance. But if I take insurance that changes everything for what I'm trying to do. And I don't know, I don't feel good about that. I don't feel good about that at all.

Speaker 1 (00:18:43):

And yeah, well, you just stumbled into, so we're gonna have to keep this conversation going. This is, I mean, this is the problem I wanna solve. Yeah. And this is, and, and again, solve not being the right word, but I have to come up with a way, and this is the challenge I'm trying to take on is how do you do this in network? Right. How do you pay providers? Well, within those constraints and serve the people that need help. Yeah. And, and we are just, cuz I gotta end of this just purely on the private pay side. Right. And I said, man, this is, I, I'm not gonna, I know how to grow this. Right. I could add more private pay programs. I could, I could go deeper down this. And from a business sense, maybe I should. But I said, no, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna pivot. We're gonna figure out how to do this through insurance. We're gonna, and we'll see, I it's a gamble. And yeah, the, the medical system, the insurance system is totally screwed up, but it's totally, there's some, I think there's some glimmers of hope in it.

Speaker 2 (00:19:44):

So there there's, I mean, obviously there's a lot of, lot of layers to this of many of which are outside of my area of expertise and the like, so just two of the things that I'm thinking about within this conversation about the, you know, medical and pay and insurance and all this stuff, we operate within a system. Yeah. Right. Like like on a macro level, we are the United States and it is a individualistic society, which, you know, has a lot of flaws to it. It's not that it doesn't have any strengths to it. You know, I think that we can get hyperbolic in only looking at the negative aspects, but you know, and a lot of my writing and stuff, I do mostly look at the negative aspects because the counter narrative, well, I can't even call it the counter narrative. The dominant narrative has been like, this is good.

Speaker 2 (00:20:37):

Everything is good. Look what we've done. Everything is wonderful. And it's, and it's not, there's a lot of hypocritical elements to it, but yeah, so, you know there are strengths and weaknesses, I think more weaknesses overall, but the when you operate within that system, what happens for, I would say most people who are in business is, you know, it's becomes profit driven and then you have people who are earning, you know, $500,000 a year. And I mean, cool, great. Earn your money. But like, what if you were earning $200,000 a year? Like, what would you be able to do if that extra $300,000 in your business that you couldn't do? You know, I mean, I think you can live a pretty good life on $200,000 a year, you know? And so I just, so I mean, that is baked into that too.

Speaker 2 (00:21:24):

Right. And I, and there are, you know, know for profit companies that I know of that have caps on salaries and things like that, trying to be more equitable. So, you know, there's, there's a larger narrative right now in society that I think some people are aware of this conversation happening and some people are, you know dancing around the borders of it, but it's, can we, can we use the existing system and restructure it in a way that can be more beneficial overall? Or do we just burn the whole to the ground down and you, and reality is, is like yeah, sure. I would love to just start over, but like what would it take? You, you want a violent revolution? I don't want a violent, I, I really don't. Yeah. I don't, I wanna live with my family in peace and watch my, my kids grow up <laugh> and, and, and become old and have kids if they wanna do that. Like, I want that. Yeah. You know, and I wanna see other people, I don't want a violent re so it's, how do we have real growth and real change? That's not pushing the most marginalized people to the side and I it's, it is we see it yeah. At play. It is ugly. Right. Well,

Speaker 1 (00:22:42):

I always say, I, I feel like I'm done coyote a lot of times and I, I recognize, I think it's been more time than I should understanding the system I'm in and how I'm trying to fix it. And also knowing, I, I also like to say I'm a, I'm a idealistic pragmatist, or maybe a pragmatic, ideal. I can't remember which one, but like I understand, and I see these trade offs and I know we have to, we, you know, have to make them. And I think on one hand I get worried because it's like, how many compromises are we gonna make? Right. You know, going down that rabbit hole. And then at the same time, I think there are things like for, for me as a, and for profit healthcare, it's like, I publish my financials. I, you can see what I make, you can do whatever.

Speaker 1 (00:23:28):

Yeah. and you know, largely I think it's just gonna be around shifting that narrative. And I think, I think the people who have been in power and how we do this can change, but we have to, you gotta get in this system. I mean, for me, without the burn to the ground, cause that's kind of my, I would say I'm an anarchist at heart in a lot of ways, but yeah, I am, but I also, I gotta get to a place of like power to change it too. Right. And it's, it's a tight rope that I, I try and navigate well, but that's like the, you know, like, just like in healthcare, if we want to make insurance more equitable, make service is more available. Like I can't do it from just cuz my ideas are good. If I have a really small platform or organization, no one's gonna listen. And then you gotta get big enough to have a seat at the table and, and you can do that. Like I, you know, that's the, that's the stuff I think about how do you get a seat at the table to bring the ideas that can bring, bring those stakeholders together? Like the insurance company isn't bad, the insurance company. Well

Speaker 2 (00:24:30):

<Laugh>,

Speaker 1 (00:24:32):

Well let me say too, like there is such a difference in insurance companies and how they pay for these services. Yeah. I mean, I'm talking, you know, a hundred percent different literally like twice as much for some companies in North Carolina than other, I can't disclose who those are. Cause that's against my contract, but I mean that's wild. Like that means I would have to pay someone half the amount. Yeah. And, and so we can't even, we can't even, and the dollar again, isn't the right measuring stick for everything. I don't know. What's better. I mean, I mean, I

Speaker 2 (00:25:04):

Like is it mean we have to be willing to try some things and to be honest, but it we're the thing. Okay. So there's, it's one thing when we have conversations about structural change what I would say like incremental structural change. Yeah. Right. As opposed to burning it all down, which I am anarchist more than at heart <laugh> but you know, again, like I, I'm not, I want, I also, I don't believe in peace without tension. Right, right. But that doesn't, that doesn't mean that peace without tension only means burning everything down to mm-hmm <affirmative> right. Like you can have tension without trying to burn everything down, but we don't even have a consensus in this country about the history of our country. Fair. Like how the hell are we gonna change? Basic things like healthcare when people think that the civil war was just fought on not slavery, but state

Speaker 1 (00:26:08):

Rights. Yeah. It's state's rights to do what

Speaker 2 (00:26:11):

Right. <Laugh> rights. Yeah. To, to, to have workers in employees. Right. Or, you know, we are over here. Oh homeboy in Florida over here talking about the stop woke act or something like that. I saw, I haven't,

Speaker 1 (00:26:27):

I just saw Twitter stay off of Twitter. I, I can't

Speaker 2 (00:26:30):

Cause it side known on social media. I actually love Twitter. But it's because I am navigating Twitter in a way that I always should have navigated Facebook because I started Facebook in oh four when I was still in college, when it was the Facebook and you had to be in college and you know, met, you know the young lady who ended up, you know, becoming my partner and all this sort of stuff. And so, you know, I've been on it for a while, but like, you start really seeing the inner thoughts of people that you thought were like, cool. And you're like, oh my God, you, you think Obama's the anti-Christ <laugh> what, you know, I understand you don't agree with his policies. I, gee, I don't agree with a lot of his policies myself. I, I, I have had a big political evolution in my personal life and but the anti-Christ right.

Speaker 2 (00:27:24):

And then you start and that's just started getting bigger and bigger. Oh, but you love Donald Trump, but Barack Obamas anti-Christ like these just, there's just the cognitive dissonance within that is just, you could, you could drive from Maryland to California on that. Like it's, it's very big. Right. And so you have people about critical race theory, which has been around for 40 years and all it is, is just looking at history and other contexts through the lens of race. Yeah. And they're freaking out about it. So how the hell are we gonna fix education healthcare or anything? So this is where the

Speaker 1 (00:27:59):

Issues. No, you're right. You're right. How

Speaker 2 (00:28:01):

Can we have real incremental without even agreeing on like the basics, right. It's like, if you had a, like, if the, if our society overall, the overwhelming majority over 80%, like agree, like yeah. Obviously like racism is horrible. There is systemic racism. This is bad. Like we're working on this. Yeah. We're, we're trying to get better. Like we already got, these states have paid parental leave and maternity leave and this is great. Like we're working like we, this is, we could work on incremental change. Yeah. We're not even there, man. You know, so, and it seems like we're pretty much just doomed to just implode anyway.

Speaker 1 (00:28:39):

So yeah, it does seem like that, but I'm, again, I'm, I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful that like just conversations. Right. And that's where, you know, like if it weren't for conversations, I had, I would have different beliefs, like a political evolution on my own. And then, you know, so I, and I view, God

Speaker 2 (00:28:56):

Bless the black women who put up with me as I grew

Speaker 1 (00:28:59):

<Laugh>. Yes. And I view that as like a big part of what I have to, you know, I'm from Hickory, North Carolina. Oh brother. I, yeah. I've got to, you know, I, I also need to make that argument to get people in the, in believing in history or believing in science or believing, you know, and I I have this other rant that could get me in trouble. <Laugh> I'm gonna go for it anyway. It's like, well,

Speaker 2 (00:29:21):

One of the other take a moment to think, cause no, I don't have the same responsibilities you no, no,

Speaker 1 (00:29:26):

No. And getting me in trouble would be be more in this context because, so I agree a hundred percent on the history thing. Right. And I want to take this, like if we could agree on the building blocks of the world, you know, I like to think like you, you wanna go beyond us in the world. Well, I, yeah, yeah. I wanna start with the universe. That's where I'm gonna start with the big bang I'm gonna start. This

Speaker 2 (00:29:49):

Is what I call my homegirl, Dr. Katie Mac. Cause she breaks all that down <laugh> so

Speaker 1 (00:29:53):

If we can agree that physics are, you know, the, you know, physics, the laws of physics, everything has to, you know adhere to the laws of physics. Then that's kind of like part one. Then if we can go to biology

Speaker 2 (00:30:08):

Except for inside of a black hole <laugh>

Speaker 1 (00:30:11):

But even that has its own has its own. I mean, now man, now, now we're outside my, but if we could agree on these things, I mean, I'm not gonna get into my free will, but the, the illusion of free will, the, the illusion of free will. And I think it's, it it's real. I think the illusion is real. So like we are, but if we could agree that like physics, biology, and then there are these other lenses we need to use, but we can't even agree on physics and biology. Like we can't even agree on history facts. Like we can't. And I kinda lost that, but I, I really just wish we, we, I mean education that's like the, the next one, healthcare and education, you know, they're big, they're huge. And we just can't. Yeah, it is. It's, it's disheartening, but it's also this great. I mean, I think the internet has, you know, it it's dividing us right now in general, but I think like we all have the information of history and, and the universe at our fingertips. Now it's just a matter of cultivating the right stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:31:15):

Excuse me. It is, well, there's so many things you can't deny that the internet, I E social media, the prolific volume of like fake news, alternative, whatever the heck you wanna call it, just inaccurate crap is dividing us. There's also a lot of unity being created on social media too. I refer to myself as a pessimistic optimistic, like, cause I really am pretty optimistic and it took me all of my twenties in a lot of my thirties to really finally get the fact that I have a lot of privileges. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And so when you talk about having to lead with certain conversations, like, Hey, I'm from Hickory, right? One of the reasons why I kind of stopped the whole corporate thing is because I always had to lead with, Hey, I grew up hunting and it, man, I know how to skin a rabbit.

Speaker 2 (00:32:05):

I know how to skin a squirrel. We used to hunt squirrels and eat 'em we, if you haven't had my dad's pan fried squirrels and white wine gravy on rice, you haven't lived like it's good. You know? And so I grew up doing that stuff and I can talk that lingo to those dudes because these are things that I grew up loving to do. And they're like, oh man, like now they feel like, oh, of us, you just think a little differently. And you know, and there's yeah. All, all kinds of areas like that. And so that, it, it also like deeply bothers me that I have to be able to, that I did have to preface that. And I was like, I've really lost a part of my identity with that. So like when I was on Facebook and politely like helping folks work through these issues, which is where one of my buddies Enrique, Dr.

Speaker 2 (00:32:51):

NEIT was like, we were friend, we actually met in the men's group back in 2012. And he was like, man, you know, you should write really well. You do a good job of like working through these issues with people you ever thought about PhD and stuff like that. He's one of the people, one of the original people who saw that in me and was advocating for that path for me. But like within that space, it felt very divided, right? I'm black. I am 13, roughly percent of the, this country mm-hmm <affirmative> right. So it's really honestly impossible for me to be an echo chamber. Like I have multiple degrees, I work I'm, I'm gonna be in a diverse space. I'm probably almost always gonna be one of the only in the space that I'm in, unless I'm being like really intentional about designing the space.

Speaker 2 (00:33:35):

So on Twitter, man, I, if you <laugh> like, I follow so black, smart, black people, which doesn't always mean they have to have degrees because I know plenty of people who are not intelligent who have many degrees <laugh>, but like I follow predominantly like smart, black and brown folks on Twitter who write really dope things or are researchers or who make really cool art, you know? And I'm, and, and there's other people I follow too. It's not just only black folks, but it, man, my Twitter space feels, it feels good. Yeah. It feels a lot better. I don't even, I haven't got, I've barely gotten on Facebook in a year. Yeah. And so that's actually been a unifying thing. Yeah. For me, where now I have this neuro divergent community that I'm cool with on Twitter through a lot of, of my work that I've done at NC state with which you already know about, which will yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:34:25):

Maybe, maybe eventually get into that one place, students moving forward in the autistic career summit. And then through that owning and understanding more of my own like neuro divergent, ADHD identity, and you know, like finding and there's issues within that community. But finding, you know, another place community that's been very unifying. People have been able to find each other in the whole like autistic movements, you know, late eighties, approximately mid eighties, late eighties, it got started. And then the you know neurodiversity movement, like these predominantly got started online. These are areas of unity mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so yeah, like <affirmative> social change is going to be messy and it's going to rub people the wrong way. And it also unites people. So yeah, it can be divisive to people who want to end C RT in a school, but it's also uniting for the people who want to end CRT in school.

Speaker 2 (00:35:20):

<Laugh> but it's also for the people who were like, yeah, I think learning about race is important. Cause it's not a biological reality. It's a social construct, you know? And so that's that duality that is hard. Right? Yeah. But it gets back to the point of, I mean, I, I hate, I hate using the word white supremacy. Not because I'm afraid of it, but because people's ears just turn off when they hear it. And it's hard to continue a tough conversation with someone when you use this word immediately, they're like just turned off. Right. But the reality is it's, it's, it's true. You can't deny this. Right. And so only reason why we have all this horrible history and people wanna abolish C RT and like that is because it's just white supremacy. That is the founding black, like in the us constitution when the founding fathers, which I had never referred to them as that like when it says all men are created equal, that statement is directed, was directed to the king of England.

Speaker 2 (00:36:23):

It is saying us rich white dudes who own land, we are just as equal to you. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> as a piece of world, they ain't talking about women. They ain't talking about black people. They ain't talking about indigenous folks. They are talking, they're not even talking about poor white men. Right. Okay. They are talking about Lando, rich Landon white men. And if you tried to <laugh>, it's like, what, what else is it? Bad fruit, bad root, like, okay, we got some bad fruit going on. There's some bad roots to this country. So we should address root issues. But it's very hard because people are committed to this. This is their life. You take it away from, they don't know what to do. Some people.

Speaker 1 (00:37:04):

And it's super uncomfortable. I mean, I like, I grew up, like I said, Hickory, libertarian, right? Like, Hey look. Right, right. This is, this is a long time ago. Everyone needs to get over it. Right. Right. Like I, and I'm not happy about that, but for personally, I'm like, Hey, like we can change. But it, it requires a lot of uncomfortable conversations. It does. And it's not gonna, you have to get, I think like as a, you gotta struggle with your identity. Right. You and, and, and for most people who've never had to struggle with that. Like, its it's very uncomfortable, but it's it it's a great process. I don't know. Yeah. So yeah. Well you mentioned on the, so we were supposed to talk about neurodiversity on college campuses, but I think this is a perfect you know, I think it, this has been more fun. I just wanna talk.

Speaker 2 (00:37:53):

I told you, if you just ask me, what do you wanna talk about today? So we might not get to yeah. I mean, I'd

Speaker 1 (00:37:58):

Rather in some ways like, I, I, I think I mean I could go on the, I, I would rather do some research on it first, but I'd, I'd rather go down some of the other rabbit holes we were, but let's talk about neurodiversity on college campuses. How'd you get interested and what's going on with this and, and why is this a, a population that yeah. You know, deserves some attention and support? Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:38:19):

So 100% is a population that deserves inten attention and support. It is as Judy singer, the person who coined the term neurodiversity in what I call the neurodiversity framework. It neurodiversity is horizontal. Everyone is a part of neurodiversity. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, even though you have opponents of it who think that it's just like for elite folks who have mild quirkiness and that's not, that's very far from the the truth of the matter. So how I got into this area as a career counselor on campus was friend of mine, Dana Thomas, she's a biological sciences advisor. And actually we're both in the PhD program. She's working on our dissertation right now. And so we had some students, we had two students that we shared cause I'm I worked for, well, I worked for student services, but I served a college of sciences.

Speaker 2 (00:39:17):

Right. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And so we can have a conversation about higher ed later. Yeah. But that'll be a month or two. Yeah. I am the loan career counselor for the college of sciences, which has been the case since it became the college of sciences, which there's a whole history of that. Which is recent happened after 2010, but 41 plus hundred students, which is more than twice the national average of peer institutions. And, you know, I've found ways to manage this, you know, for the most part. But there's always students who fall through the cracks mm-hmm <affirmative> and like, as someone to me who really wants to advocate for people, like how it's, it's emotionally draining and just hurtful to know that I have students who are falling through the cracks, just because I'm a human and I have limited bandwidth. Right.

Speaker 2 (00:40:06):

Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so there was two students who were falling through the cracks, but not because we weren't working with them because they were having issues navigating through the job search process, mostly like the interview area mm-hmm <affirmative>, which we know is pretty loaded, like interviews really need to be revamped in general and like application processes and there's real issues. I mean, when you work for a large company or whatever size company and you have, you know, thousand applicants for one role, I mean, how are you gonna go through that? I mean, there, there are some real issues within there's like some legitimate problems there. So anyway, we had these two students and they were both had over 3.0 GPAs in the college of sciences, you know really bright really motivated and really honestly just cool students. They were just cool people, man.

Speaker 2 (00:41:04):

And so it was, it was just on the soul fatter. They were autistic. Like they were just having a hard time. One student was having a hard time because this student was trying to get internships, research opportunities on campus. And, you know, there were faculty who were just questioning the student's ability to be able to work in their lab. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> student. Hasn't had that student, I'm trying to be really specific in like not using gender identity or anything. So I don't want to identify anything here, but like that student specifically had a 4.0 in their major. Yeah. I think they're good. Yeah. As students absolutely freaking brilliant, like brilliant, just nice person. And so this is just a misunderstanding, it's just a it's it's, it's a discriminatory understanding of what autism really is. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> right. And we don't even fully know what autism really is at this point anyway.

Speaker 2 (00:41:59):

And so and then any other student has some more visible presenting issues with like speech impediments and stuff mm-hmm <affirmative> and where the student was on a group interview. And the people in the group interview thought that the student was intoxicated. And the only reason why we knew that was because one of the people called the students reference references mm-hmm <affirmative>. And one of 'em was my counterpart who was like, no, definitely not intoxicated. This student is has some other things going on. It's not that. And was given the right to disclose from the student was able to say the student's autistic. And it was like, oh, and that, but only reason why that person out of that group interview called was because they had like a niece or a cousin was on the spectrum. And they were like, I think this is what's going on.

Speaker 2 (00:42:54):

Right. So unless you have some level of personal relation because sometimes your personal relationship with it can still skew things. It was just creating issues. And we're like, there has to be other students here. So we went around and we talked to some people in a disability resource office and they were really supportive and some people in the counseling center and they were really supportive and they gave was some data. And there was like out of the 30,000, 35,000 plus students at the university only 48 that academic year were registered with registered as being autistic with the disability resource office. And I use identity first language primarily, or I'll sometimes go neutral and say on the autism spectrum, just out of solidarity with the autistic movement. But and so we're like, okay, so let's just throw something together. Let's not have the typical higher ed.

Speaker 2 (00:43:47):

This is just we're gonna meet indefinitely until we figure this out. So we just met over the summer. We threw together like, Hey, let's do a workshop. Let's try to keep, let's make it impactful, but let's try to limit the the weight on students time. Right. so we'll do it in the evenings, but not too late in the evenings, we'll have food because it's a dinner time and stuff like this, but our knowledge was lacking. Yeah. You know, I mean, there was a lot of hubris in us putting this together, like, oh, we can do this and put it together and blah, blah, blah. And I'm glad that we did right. But after the first year, so five, five workshops each fall in each spring, 90 minutes, each focus on a lot of crew development topics. But, and there's more that I could get into about all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:44:32):

But after that first year, and we had some guest presentations that first semester from the counseling center and then one from the disability resource office. And then the next semester we had our first like employer who came mm-hmm <affirmative> who has stuck with us and been a founding supporting partner of that. Who is that? Daniel pav with SA who's good friend, great person does awesome work. Really appreciate everything she's doing the students moving. I mean, one of the reasons that the students moving forward program and the autistic career summit was able to be, was from her support because her support was the support of SAS. And she's like the first person to be in a diversity role over at SAS, she's doing some really great stuff. So it grew after the first year we started, we started getting more emails from people about like, Hey, you know, can we inquire about this?

Speaker 2 (00:45:28):

Could, you know, can we ask you some questions? And we were like, okay, we gotta learn more her. And not even fault to Dana, she just has it's. We are horribly understaffed, you know, these universities that have, you know, billion plus dollar budget endowments and things. And you know, and it's tough for a multitude of roles on there. And so, you know, she's doing her thing with this was more of a career develop lane, so she's always supported it, but I had to take more of like the leadership aspect at that point. And so I was like, okay, I gotta learn a lot more about this. Because something's off met with some of the folks at UNCT who have been supportive and things, but then just started reading more about like neurodiversity and then like learning like, oh, there's didn't know this identity first language versus person first, all I ever learned was person first language.

Speaker 2 (00:46:18):

And then reading Judy singers were, and Judy is a friend now, like we just two weeks ago, we just had a talk over zoom. We were just chatting for a few hours. Like she's a actually really funny person. She's really funny. She's brilliant, really funny. And so grew, but I realized that I did the thing and I, I want to preface this. I'm really intentional about saying this because I think I strongly believe being open about the things that we got wrong and how we worked through those is how we get past, like that previous conversation we had of like, we don't even agree about how history, like people have to humble themselves. I did a bad job of creating this the first year because I didn't involve anyone. Who's actually autistic in the planning of it. Now I did have someone who was neuro divergent.

Speaker 2 (00:47:08):

That was me, but I really wasn't aware fully of my neuro diversion identity and things like that and what that met. So I don't count that. Right. Right. but you know, the autistic self help network, self advocate network, I'm messing everything else. I can't remember anything right now, but you know, their motto is, you know, nothing about us without us. And like, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I definitely made something about you without you. And I was like, oh man, I did, I would be really if there was an event for, you know, black professionals in stem and everyone on stage was white, not black, you know, and or in the planning of it, like I would be, you know? So I was like, I did that. I will not do that going forward. And through Danielle was able to get connected with now very good friend Magnus, head of mark, who has helped me create a professional advisory board of local professionals who are autistic, who were attorneys, who were executives, who are data scientists who are researchers in social science and engineers and all these different ranges of professions, not just coders.

Speaker 2 (00:48:21):

Right. Cause a lot of the autism to work programs are all focused on coding just yeah. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so, or this only like white dudes too, we have some D diversity in the group. We've gender diversity, wait, it's not just white guys that are neuro diverse. It's surprising. It's surprising. Right. Other people are allowed to have multiple identities. It's yeah. That's how it started. And I am, I am not to try to hoard resources. I, I have that natural bend within me and I fight it as much as I can. And so I didn't want to just say like us as a large land grant university in the state lake, this is just gonna be us. I'm like, we all have this issue in North Carolina and higher ed, no one North Carolina and higher ed, like in a career office is doing anything to address this directly.

Speaker 2 (00:49:16):

And it's not because people don't care understaff we don't budgets are thin like career service is one of the areas that gets a lot of attention and like no money <laugh>, you know, and like we're under. So it's just like, well, how do you do this? So the autistic career summit was a way to get some employers in the door who aren't only recruiting for coding. Cause it's not even just stem, it's just coding. Right, right. But who are recruiting for a wide range of areas, but also a way for like the other people at these colleges to like connect and like share resources and students and, you know make a cohesive effort to move this thing forward. Right. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and at that same time had got connected with like the link program, which is through the governor's office.

Speaker 2 (00:50:03):

Mm-Hmm <affirmative> or the, the North Carolina business committees for education. I always get the acronym wrong. So I'm on the planning committee for them, you know, and it's, and that's how that started growing. Right. So that's how I got in it. But then when I got in it, I'm like learning from my members of the professional advisory board. And I'm like, they own this aspect of their identity. I, I know that I'm ADHD, but I've never, I've never really spent time thinking about it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And like I was like, oh my gosh, this is, this is like, really me, like all these experiences. And then like understanding, you know, if you're gonna look at the DSM and like mild modern it to severe, like you could make the argument that I'm like high moderate, or like severe ADHD. My diagnosis is moderate, severe, moderate to severe, but I am very ADHD.

Speaker 2 (00:50:57):

And the more ADHD you are, the more traits that overlap with autistic traits mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so I had a lot of same thoughts and feelings that my autistic students did. I was like, well, no wonder, like I connect with them. Makes sense. Makes you know, makes. And so I'm like, and then I just had like a horrible experience in one of my classes where, you know, in a lot of doctoral classes, you don't have like exams, you do other stuff. And, but this was like old school professor. And so we had exam, we had an exam for, I think an assessment advanced assessment where we're learning how to create like good assessments and what makes a good assessment. And the exam was a bad assessment. It was a timed exam that had 50 short answer questions about like, you know research topics and what makes a good assessment like internal reli versus external reliability and all the alpha co alpha Chrome box and all this crap, you know?

Speaker 2 (00:51:54):

And so question number 50 was write a four paged, APA following the APA guideline paper, critiquing this article. And it was like, I can do this, but I can't. I have, I have an hour and 30 minutes left of this class. I, this is not how my brain works. There's a class full of people, chewing and writing and typing. And I'm like, what the hell? You know, like out of everyone, there was like four people who didn't finish one of 'em their computer brokes I don't even count that. So there's like three people who didn't finish. And I'm like, and I definitely had the least done out of like I had like maybe my intro paragraph. Yeah. And I'm like, I, I think I'm a pretty good writer, but I, I need time and I need space and I need not to have distractions. And I'm like, okay.

Speaker 2 (00:52:41):

I'm like, they're taught they're my, my professional advisory board is saying this, I see my students. I'm like, I'm owning this. I'm going and getting my diagnosis. This was just in 2020. Yeah. This wasn't that long ago. But it came through the process of all that. Right. And so I was like, this is not the, the, the reason why this was something that naturally pulled me in was because without even realizing it, like, it's me, like I'm advocating for a former version and current of myself who was a student who didn't have these structures that were there. So that's really essentially like the basic of it, I guess. Yeah. I would say a long-winded answer for you. Yeah. Well, that's

Speaker 1 (00:53:18):

Great. UN unfortunately we're gonna, we're gonna have to wrap up pretty soon. <Laugh> I know, I wish I, we should have jumped straight in. We, we were what's

Speaker 2 (00:53:27):

Up with that chatting. Hey, what's you were

Speaker 1 (00:53:31):

First. I would, I, I would I'd love to keep going, but what advice before we do wrap up just like the quick hits, if you're, you know, say you're a neuro identifies neurodiverse student, or you're the parent of an neurodiverse student, what, you know, regardless of what university, maybe specifically at state, but you know, what is the advice you would give? Where do they go for that help? Where do they go?

Speaker 2 (00:53:56):

One own own who you are. This is a part of who you are, regardless if you are someone who really does not subscribe up to the framework of neurodiversity and you are more, so I have ADHD, or I have autism versus I am ADHD, or I am autistic. It's still a part of who you are own that you got to this college, or university. That was not easy. You worked hard to be there, there are strengths. We have strengths and we can showcase these strings through like we know intelligence assessments are layered, but mm-hmm, <affirmative> the Wesler adult intelligence scale. Like it shows that like, so a typical neuro diversion profile compared to a typical neurotypical profile is it's spiky where the neurotypical mm-hmm <affirmative> profile is flatter. And so the comes from, we have like, we tend to have these higher strengths, these higher weaknesses.

Speaker 2 (00:54:50):

So like for mine, like my perceptual reasoning is like really high. And my working memory is pretty low. Comparatively, like a little below average. And so, but my verbal reasoning is really high and then my processing processing speed is, and so those strengths have gotten you there. So under it's, like you've, you've probably had like ABA therapy and all this stuff that like made you conform and all this. Right. And so there's all these issues with it. And so like start working on your strengths, like, yeah. How are your strengths? How do you use these right register with the accessibility office or disability resource office, whatever they call it. It's not a shameful thing. It's not an extra area of help. Everyone needs support. No one moves forward in life without support. We all need support, just varying degrees of it in different areas. The register with the office, get your support, make sure you share that with your professors, because you never know when you're going to need to rely on that because a professor doesn't understand that you interpret information differently, that you learn differently. The point of this university is not a weeding out process. It's supposed to be a place where you get to learn and understand stand these things so you can apply them later in life. Make sure they're allowing you to learn so you can apply those things later in life.

Speaker 1 (00:56:15):

That's a mic drop, but no that, well, first of all, our, our our testing probably looks pretty similar. I had a neuropsych down a few years ago and you just rattled it off. I was like, yep, yep, yep. Yep. And I, I restructured my day. I wanted to learn how that affected me as a leader. Yeah. And, you know, the lower process like I have, I don't suffer in, you know, on the full scale as far as having lower processing. Right. But it is much lower than my perceptual reasoning or verbal, which means I do need, like, for me to function best, like I gotta take a, a pause and let my brain catch up. Yeah. And stuff like that. So it's been, it's been it's been interesting to get to know that, and I think that's true and I've had to, you know, acknowledge where I'm not that good and, and that's fine. And I can let other people who have those strengths do it for me, you know, and, or support me and build strategies. We're gonna have to do a whole nother show on ABA sounds. Gosh, because that, well, I'm gonna let my wife do that because she is not the biggest fan. Oh good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's been

Speaker 2 (00:57:25):

A lot written about it. I, I, I'm not an expert on it, but it's obviously you listen to the stories of, I'll just say reformed ABA therapists and former clients, and it's horrifying. It's horrible. You know? I mean it's

Speaker 1 (00:57:39):

Well, yeah. And just to tie it all back in a bow, one of the reasons we have this proliferation of ABA therapy cuz private equity money has gotten into healthcare and ABA therapy shows results. Yes. And so they show results. Now we can pop up these clinics and fix people and it's sickening. Yeah. I

Speaker 2 (00:58:00):

Agree. I agree. Yep man. Who's results. What are the like how do we measure? Yeah. There's all layers and layers. There's

Speaker 1 (00:58:07):

So many and, but we're gonna authorize it. We can, yeah. You know, we can try and treat people like Pavlovian dogs and oh gosh, it's sick. It's horrible. Yeah. Anyway, Wes, thanks a lot for coming on. Hey, this was fun. This was fun. We had to do this again. I learned so much and I was, I was especially early on. I was, I was nervous and and that's good. Right? Like I'm next time we're gonna do, we're gonna do like a three hour so we can really let the range go. Right. And, and really get into some of the, even more uncomfortable places.

Speaker 2 (00:58:37):

It be the anti joke rug. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:58:39):

Well, I don't know. I, you know, and I'm gonna, I, well, I'm gonna, I wanna, I just read this, the article on Joe Rogan, right? Like I, I don't know. That's yeah. I don't know the dude.

Speaker 2 (00:58:51):

I don't like, and I'm

Speaker 1 (00:58:53):

With's I'm with you, right? Like that's a fun, but man, it's fun to get in the weeds. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:58:57):

I, so, okay. I know we're trying to, but like the one. Okay. So San J Dr. San J Gupta, right. Went on this show. Yeah. You know, wrote a little piece on CNN about it, which was a nice little piece. He wrote about like going into Langden. It was a little overly dramatic and stuff, but there was actually a line in there that I was horrified by, by Dr. San J Gupter, who I, I, I don't know these people, but I respect his work where he said that, you know, no phones and none, this stuff had a three hour conversation. He's like, I don't know when I've had a three hour conversation with someone. I was like, that's not good, man. You know, like you really need to, we, as people really need to just have deeper, longer, more me conversations and us. Yeah. Neuro diversion folks. I'm looking us we're not really ones for small talk. I hate small

Speaker 1 (00:59:51):

Talk, hate, hate. Let's go politics, religion, race, everything. Like it's so much better.

Speaker 2 (00:59:56):

Yeah. Yeah. people hate asking me how I'm doing, because you're gonna get a real answer and I'm gonna go it, you know? And I, so it's just, yeah. Like we all need to be having deeper. Yeah. Longer, more meaningful conversations. This is not a promotion for Joe's.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):

No, no.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):

Yeah. I just mean in general, I don't, I don't listen to this podcast,

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):

But yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna send you that article though. I'm, I'm fascinated. I'm fascinated by people who do have these conversations and, well, this was not a hit piece or a promotion up him. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but just a, I mean, I've liked some of them, but I don't agree with like, I also really

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):

Don't few years ago

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):

Agree with a lot of the stuff that even like, I'm not gonna bring a white supremacist on just to explore that viewpoint. Right. Like there's, there's a line, but yeah. Mean it's but I'll say it like I well

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):

I like Dr. Carl Hart, which has a lot of controversial takes and I, I like him and he was on Joe Rogan's pocket and I like Carl Hart. So I watched that episode and I was good. I liked the conversation. I enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):

He's good. Yeah. He's been fascinating to read his, his works. Yeah. That's a whole nother

Speaker 2 (01:01:01):

Conversation brother.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):

All right. So we got like, we got like drug policy, critical race theory in schools. ABA therapy. Yeah. We got a whole season coming. I know we

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):

Didn't even really even get down on like the neuro divergent ADHD stuff, but maybe

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):

We actually did without doing it because we demonstrated

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):

This was 100% at total ADHD, neuro divergent. Well, I would say ADHD conversation. My, my autistic friends' conversations. Didn't be a little bit more organized in mine, but we still communicate very well with each other. Cause we get it. We like our minds, even though operate differently, have more similarities than those of a neurotypical mind, which has its own strengths and weaknesses. You know, neurodiversity is like I said, horizontal it's, you know, there's the neurodiversity from a biodiversity aspect where there's just different neurocognitive wiring of people's brains. And then there's neurodiversity paradigm, which basically is saying that there are, there is no hierarchy to this variations of neurocognitive functioning for people's brains. And in that all of these neurocognitive wirings have value in society. Yeah. Like it's, they all have some have strengths. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Some are better in some situations than others. Right. And so, and then there's the neurodiversity movement and there's a whole, there's many debates on language and all this stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):

Yeah. Well I know I, I learn about and it, and, and it changes as it should. Yes. Language evolves. Yes. Thank goodness. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. But until next time I'm wrapping this up. Cause we gotta go. I gotta, I gotta hop on a call and we're gonna continue this though is actually fun. I we'll be back. Thank you. Bye.